*If the Ohio Players were to record an album in the near future, in the fine tradition of classics past such as Pain, Pleasure, Ecstasy, Fire, Honey, Contradiction. Angel and Gold, this one could very well be titled…Survival. On the horizontal gatefold outside cover, imagine a boldly beautiful Black soldier-ette, sweat-drenched and mud-caked in a uniform barely covering her essentials having crawled to the top of a hill in battle carrying a sacred flag on her back to place as a milestone marker high on a mountaintop.
Now imagine a vertical inside gatefold of this soldier-ette standing proudly on top of this hill, having plunged her flag pole into the earth, her hair spilling from under her headband whipping wildly in the wind as she makes a provocative, triumphant stance of victory. Those images could very well represent the 50+ years of glory and tragedy surrounding one of the most universally gifted bands to ever record and tour at the service of music.
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In the pair of interviews that follow, prolific Los Angeles-based music journalist A. Scott Galloway rapped with Ohio Players James “Diamond” Williams and Billy Beck in advance of a Saturday, February 12 concert at Toyota Stadium in Ontario, CA (also featuring Joe Bataan, Barbara Mason, The Temprees, Mayer Hawthorne and more) about what it has taken for the band that brought the world timeless Black Pool of Genius classics such as “Skin Tight,” “Heaven Must Be Like This,” “I Want to Be Free,” “Love Rollercoaster” and “Sweet Sticky Thing” to survive to 2022 and still be at the top of their musical game at a time when so many other bands of their era are extinct, struggling or faking the funk.
Scott: Diamond, my friend, I’d like to start this conversation reminiscing on our brother Robin Russell, amazing drummer of The New Birth/Nite-Liters bands of the `70s who passed away suddenly last year. How do you remember him?
Diamond: He was a great guy. When both of us were on the road, we used to meet up in hotel rooms and hallways …beatin’ on the floor, actin’ crazy havin’ a good time! His death was really a surprise. More recently when the Players were out on the west coast, he came to a couple of our gigs. I would always hit him on Facebook and otherwise just to stay in tune with what was going on. We used to talk frivolously about the crazy stuff we did back then. I didn’t talk too much personally about what was going on in his life. I did know that he did that park thing. (Author’s Note: Robin regularly set up and played his drums in the same spot for 20 years in Griffith Park for recreation and, likely, some personal therapy). I was kind of envious of him to be able to go to a park and play in nature like that. I thought, ‘Wow that must be great!’ Now, I was NOT envious of him setting up and tearing down all those drums all the time, I’ll tell you that! (laughter)
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Scott: Sadly, Robin’s experience in New Birth does not mirror yours in the Ohio Players. Even at New Birth’s peak, they never played outside of the country, there were power struggles, bitter feuds, which I know the Ohio Players experienced, too. But by the mid-`80s, New Birth as a band ceased to exist. The version that travels now is two lead singers accompanied by backing musicians. So, there was no long-standing band to rally around Robin – business-wise or personal-wise. Their members all scattered. This brings me to what I want to focus on with you today. How were the Ohio Players able to survive into such a thriving space today – through all of the hurdles ALL of the classic Black Bands of The `70s had to face and/or not get over?
Diamond: Where we are today is being very blessed. To be able to do what we do. It’s not an easy thing. The hill that we had to climb to get here was a tough one and a high one where our popularity in the world is concerned and releasing new music is concerned. That time seems to have almost come to a close. Yet we still have the ability to play the music that people remember and love. And we play it quite well. This year marks 50 years of me being with the band starting with its third Westbound album, Ecstasy (1972).
Scott: What have the most difficult challenges been for you now as leader of this band after so many band member changes?
Diamond: You have to climb within yourself and ask, “What can I do with the life I have been given?” The answer is being determined to do it, expecting everything to increase in your abilities to do it, and your desire to want to do it. If you lose your desire, everything is basically gone.
Just take COVID. 18 months of inactivity in this business has been very critical and upsetting. But you can’t lose your desire to want to go out and face the public again. At the very time that we were restarting this band (after a lull from the late `70s into early `80s), there were no other entities. Sugarfoot (legendary lead singer/guitarist/songwriter Leroy “Sugarfoot” Bonner of the Afro and the “Owwww”), Billy Beck, myself and Chet Willis (longtime 2nd guitarist) got back together at first only to help ‘Sugar’ with his solo album, Sugar Kiss (Warner Bros. – 1985). At first, Sugar submitted an album that the company rejected, which brought the rest of us back on board to assist him. Other than the songs Sugar co-wrote with Roger Troutman, most of the other stuff wasn’t working. So, we helped him with some writing and that brought us back together. We decided to become the Ohio Players again, record and tour.
There was a little entity of another band going around here (locally in Ohio) calling itself the Ohio Players that consisted of a guy named Ronnie Hoard who adopted my nickname, “Diamond.” The four of us paid him a lil’ visit, told him, “Do Not use our name anymore….and Do Not let us have to knock on your door again!” And that was that.
Then we continued on and, Scott, it was hard, man. When you have been to the mountain top, and seen the hills and valleys from above, then maintain that level of altitude for a period of time – to go back to ground zero and say, ‘Where do we go from Here’ is a huge thing. It can cause people to lose their minds. We had to determine if we really wanted to do this. As the manager of this band, I said, “You know what we need to do? We to go somewhere where we can play as much as we need to play to get our act together.”
So, myself, Sugarfoot, Robert Nooks (keys), Chet, Darwin Dortch (bass) and Robert Kuumba (percussion) went to Japan for 6 weeks playing a club called The Bird (in Yokohama) as a little workshop to get ourselves back together. We’d do 2 shows a night, 6 days a week. Practice makes perfect. So, we have become BETTER from that point to today. We recorded one album, Back, for Track Records (in Seattle) in 1988 (their labelmates were the Average White Band). But we lost ourselves trying to become electronic. The Ohio Players is not an electronic band. When you hear electronics on my drums, we have a problem. So, although the songs on that album were absolutely marvelous (sites “Let’s Play” and “Just to Show My Love”), the production was lacking.
It’s tough being our age. It’s tough going back and forth with record companies, concert promoters, There’s a lot of work involved that customarily I wouldn’t be involved with. But things change and this was the season for us to have to weather all of that. But all along we knew in our hearts that we wanted to continue on. We started playing gigs around the U.S. – small places – but we were building back our momentum and on a roll. I’m telling you; I had the biggest snowball getting ready to roll down the hill until COVID hit two years ago. BAM. My snow melted, Scott. The year before COVID, was our best year on the road in 25 years!
Scott: I always say this, there is nothing like a tight band with a sack full of hits. And I never marginalize you as a ‘Funk band.’ Ohio Players music incorporates R&B, Jazz, Blues, Gospel, Rock and Funk. Though I was too young to see you in the `70s, once you all started back, I saw you everywhere – The Strand, The Coconut Teazer, The L.A. Street Scene, The Greek Theater, Vault 350 and more. Most recently, I saw you murder the crowd on a smooth jazz show at The Hollywood Bowl! And I saw you on the “Soul Train Cruise” a few years back. As just a rhythm section initially then later when your budget allowed for the return of a horn section, ‘The Players’ were always such a funky delight…which his why I kept on coming year after year.
Diamond: I appreciate that, Scott. We devoted ourselves to creating a style that incorporates all styles of music. Some people don’t appreciate that. Yes, we wrote R&B and Funk hits, but we wrote Pop hits, too. And we deliberately wrote them… because we wanted to. We didn’t luck up on that. We decided, ‘we’re going to write us a Pop hit!’ We wrote ballads that I believe are incredible. The Ohio Players are truly players. We don’t have any triggers. We don’t have anything being sung or played that’s not on stage. We’re one of the few bands truly doing everything live.
We wrote three platinum albums in a row (Skin Tight, Fire and Honey – Mercury – 1974-1975). We should have had enough money to last us forever. We didn’t know… But as musicians, we pushed ourselves to branch out and show some of our other artistic ability. We couldn’t predict that our popularity would drop off to the point of not having a hit record. But there comes a period in an artist’s life when you’d like to have the full sum of your abilities accepted.
Our songs always had a concept or theme. The verses went together with the bridge, the rhythm and the horns were right where they needed to be, and the whole package was great – down to our album covers. We were a complete band. And we did it ALL ourselves – no outside producer. We’re very proud of it.
Scott: While I hate that the cruise you were supposed to play this month was postponed, I’m relieved because I did not want you all to get sick. I’ve been to nightclubs, house parties and movie theaters – masked, ‘vaxed,’ socially-distanced and hand-sanitized. But you will not catch me in an airport, on an airplane or on a cruise ship…for the time being.
Diamond: I agree. I’m not interested in being on a floating petri dish, Scott. But I’ll tell you what. We do need the work.
Scott: What did you do to make a living while the country was shut down?
Diamond: As artists, we used that time to write. We fed off all these emotions from the general public…watching news broadcasts…seeing people crying and going crazy… Then we made songs about it. The other thing I have been doing is writing a book and working on a movie. The book is about my life and upbringing. The movie is about the Ohio Players. Billy, Merv (o.g. band trombonist Marvin Pierce) and I are putting our memoirs together.
I’m too energetic to just sit around the house, eat drink and be merry. I’ve got other things of importance. For one, I have two daughters: Schele Williams, a Broadway Director for Disney in New York, wrote an acclaimed children’s book titled “Legacy.” It’s a New York Times bestseller dealing with Black people and our legacies. She’s working with Dwayne Wade and Gabrielle Union to turn it into an animated feature. She’s working on a Nelson Mandela project in Europe. And she’s working on bringing the movie “Hidden Figures” to Broadway. She also gave me two granddaughters!
My youngest daughter Anji here in Dayton is the human resources director of seven medical facilities. She hires and fires doctors and whatnot! She gave me three grandsons. She’s very knowledgeable and kept her daddy tight around her arm, making sure I didn’t even leave the house during COVID. My wife and I were very well protected.
Scott: You and Billy could retire living off of royalties. What about the band?
Diamond: Well, the band is no longer in one central location like the originals were in Ohio. Two live in Atlanta, two live in Chicago, two are in Youngstown and the rest of us live in Dayton. So only at soundchecks are we able to practice. But we stay in communication. As you say, guys gotta eat. And all of them are not as financially situated as I happen to be. So, they’ve done what they had to do – some using their music craft, others getting second jobs. And the keyboard players always find churches to play in. Most of the clubs have been shut down so that’s more inactivity. We were also able to file for unemployment which helped. We use the resources that are out here for us and just hold on…like everybody else.
When things finally did open up a little, we got five gigs in. And on the 12th of February, we have a show in Ontario, California. Then we’re doing “The Ultimate Disco Cruise” when it’s rescheduled.
Scott: I imagine sampling and song licensing has been very lucrative for the original members.
Diamond: It has been very lucrative. As I said before, we played, wrote and produced all of our stuff. And Satch (former leader/saxophonist Clerence Satchell) was intelligent enough to hold on to our publishing and writer’s rights…though he also made sure to hold on to a higher percentage of it for himself. That has provided us the ability to exist during this point in time. The Toyota RAV4 commercial used “Fire” and paid us quite well. I almost could have bought a RAV4 after that! I sure was lookin’! (laughter)
Scott: I must acknowledge that Ester Cordet, (the gorgeous model for the Grammy-winning album cover of the Ohio Players’ Honey), just celebrated her 75th birthday. Have you ever encountered her since you immortalized her?
Diamond: Yes, we saw her a couple of years back at the Blue Note Club in Hawaii. She’s taken really good care of herself and looked really good. She enjoyed the show and, of course, we took a picture with her.
Scott: And I must ask your thoughts on the passing last month of Greg Webster, the drummer of the Ohio Players who preceded you and later authored the book “The True Story of the Ohio Players” (Daysville Publishing – 2001).
Diamond: Well, of course, I have sympathy for his death. I had admiration for him as a drummer for perfecting the shuffle beat. He helped start everything and then I jumped on board. So, there’s definitely respect for that. We were cordial with each other over the years but I never really had a personal relationship with him.
The occasion of me replacing him happened one time when he had become sick and the band needed a quick replacement for that engagement. (Trombonist) Marvin Pierce, who I had played with in the band The Overnight Low (later Sun) along with Chet Willis reached out to me to see if I was available. Of course, I was. I had the opportunity to see Greg play about a year before that. I remember telling my wife that if I ever got a chance to replace him, I would take his job. And that’s exactly what happened. After I sat in with them at that nightclub in Milwaukee, the band went to see Greg in the hospital where he was and told him his services were no longer needed. Greg had been the leader of the band at that time. So, it wasn’t just like replacing any old band member. I replaced the leader of the Ohio Players.
Scott: How close are the Ohio Players to having new music in the marketplace?
Diamond: Scott, it is so tremendously difficult to ante up what you need to have just to get a record heard today. The dilemma is money. For some things, we have taken money out of our own pockets to do. We also tried the crowdfunding situation but could not get enough people involved to want to hear good Ohio Players music again. This business has changed so much. Lyrics now go nowhere and melody lines are contrary to the doggone key a song is in! I’m genuinely interested to know how many people really miss hearing good music. In my humble opinion, there’s not enough who will financially help a band like ours to be able to produce and promote such a record.
We released one song a few years back called “Reset” that cost us roughly $40-50,000 to make…only to find that we actually needed about $200,000 to make a difference. We’ve got some great songs but where are the people? I am 71 years old now, Scott. So, I’ve had to realize our place in the industry today.
Scott: I believe if you invest your money into producing and manufacturing a great new Ohio Players album – from the music to the album cover – sold it as vinyl and/or CDs at your shows where you would sign them afterwards for fans, you should do well without going the radio/satellite routes. What can Southern California fans expect at the Players’ pre-Super Bowl show this weekend?
Diamond: The Ohio Players are now a 10-piece band: Billy and Odean Mays (keys, vox), Darwin Dortch on bass, myself on drums, Kenny Anderson (trumpet) Mike Turner (tenor/alto sax) and Johnny Cotton (bone) and THREE GUITARS: Chet Willis, Christopher Bowman and Edward Rick Ward. We just put “FOPP” back into the set and we’re gonna have guitars screamin’ at you like CRAZY! FOPP is comin’ back on the Rock side, Scott – you ain’t gonna believe it!
- Scott Galloway Interviews Billy Beck of the Ohio Players
Scott: What is your perspective on the longevity of the Ohio Players?
Billy: The main thing is that when we set out to write, we all were having fun. We wanted to write songs that showed that we were having fun and give that fun back to the people. And we wanted to write good songs, Cuz good songs will stand the test of time. That is the main secret for longevity in this business.
Scott: Speak to the commitment you had to have to still be here.
Billy: The commitment of the group is we’ve always been like a family. These brothers are my family when I am not at home. We all feel that same way about each other. There is a bond there deeper than the music. We care about each other and our families. We love working together. And we love doing what we do.
Scott: You and Diamond are the longest-standing members of the Ohio Players…and neither of you is actually an o.g. not even originals. What did it mean to you to get this gig back in `73?
Billy: Oh, it meant everything to me because I was an Ohio Players fan. I studied their music. Initially, I was sitting in for them for just one weekend. We did one show in Louisville KY with Al Green as the headliner. I asked Satch, ‘O.K., where’s my ticket home?” He said, “You ain’t goin’ home…”
Scott: Were you the immediate keyboardist to follow legendary Junie Morrison?
Billy: No. A lot of people tried out for that gig but they just didn’t work out, See, every time they came to Youngstown, Ohio, I was there playing in the opening act but it was always with a different band. I was the same guy playing keyboards. I was a teenager when I got with the Ohio Players – 19. I arrived on Skin Tight once they had moved to Mercury Records.
Scott: Did you have any kind of a relationship with Junie?
Billy: Yes, I knew him very well and told him I admired his work. We had great conversations about music. I think Junie graduated high school in `68 or `69. I graduated in `72. When I got the gig, nobody really had heard of me. Junie had moved on with his solo career on Westbound (later joining Funkadelic). So, I believe he – and most people really – felt like, ‘This guy ain’t gonna last long.’ Until they turned me loose in the studio for the Skin Tight sessions…and their whole sound changed. At first, Junie was like, ‘Who is this kid?’ After a moment, Junie and I had mutual respect.
Scott: When do you feel that R E S P E C T kicked in?
Billy: After the Ohio Players got their first Gold and Platinum albums. Up until that time, they only had one Gold 45: ‘Funky Worm’ (1972).
Scott: I understand you had a close relationship with “Sugarfoot?”
Billy: In the hungry days, we used to sleep two to a room. ‘Sugar’ had peculiar ways… He wasn’t very talkative and could have a kinda mean disposition. So, nobody really wanted to room with him. Me being the youngest, I got saddled with him! Sugar was my roommate on the road. When we started talking about music, that’s when he was more talkative. Then we had deep conversations about everything.
I come from the church, I started playing when I was 4. I was taken under the wing of Professor George Bretz of Youngstown State University and School of Music when I was 8. He kept me under his wing until I graduated high school. So, I was classically trained…and eons ahead of everybody else. When I was in the 11th grade, I was offered a full-ride scholarship to Central State. I didn’t take it because didn’t want to leave home. And my mom definitely didn’t want me to go.
Scott: Yet one year later, you were in the Ohio Players! I imagine she’d be more afraid of you going on the road than going away to school!
Billy: Yeah, well, Satch reassured her that the group would take care of me.
When I first got in the group, I didn’t know anybody. I was staying at Satch’s house in his guest bedroom. Diamond came by, picked me up and showed me around Dayton. Then he took me to meet his family. We really bonded that day. Our bond has been like that ever since. We’ve weathered the storms of being together and not together over the years. Yet we’ve outlasted other bands that stayed together for whatever duration…and we’re still here to talk about it.
As the Musical Director of the Ohio Players, I insist that we sound as close as possible to the original records. I will fine people for not sounding like the record. I take that from the school of James Brown.
Scott: Seeing you come back to the fold thrilled my heart. I could clearly discern that you carried the keys to the hitmaking Ohio Players sound. However, I must say that Sugarfoot’s Ohio Players (in the 2000s) were strong. I saw them at a casino just outside of Palm Springs AND at the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival. Those young bloods were NO JOKE. What did you think of them?
Billy: I met Sugarfoot’s Ohio Players every time they came to Cleveland, I’d go to the show, let them know I was at the gate and get a backstage pass. I came up on stage once. They wanted me to play but I said, “No, I want to sing.” So, I did…and didn’t tell Sugar ahead of time. He didn’t know I was coming. He was very happy to see me. And I was very happy to see him.
Whatever the rift was, it was between Sugar and Diamond. My thing was none of us are getting any younger. Forgot all these rifts! Let’s get together and do what we did. We never know when it’s our turn. The only One who knows when it’s your time is God.
Scott: What really happened near the end before Sugarfoot passed?
Billy: When Sugar was really sick, their bass player Trey kept calling me because he wanted me to come on the road with them. I hadn’t gotten back together with Diamond and the Players yet. I said, “I want to hear it from Sugar. If he calls me and says he wants me to come back, I’ll come.” How did I know he was sick with cancer and dying? He kept that strictly to himself. I told you he had peculiar ways.
Scott: What a wishbone you must have felt like with Diamond and Sugar gently tugging on you from both ends…
Billy: That was a decision hang-up… Well, I never got a call from Sugar so I stayed doing what I was doing which was playing for the church, I stayed out of the way and kept writing… I’m always writing… I can’t help it.
After Sugar passed, Diamond personally called me and asked me to come back. He said, “If there was ever anything that I did or said to you, let that be in the past. Let’s just go forward.” That was good enough for me. I came back with no hesitation.
Scott: And the legacy of Black Music is all the better for it. What do you love most about being back?
Billy: What I really love is our fans. They played our music around their kids who grew up and played it around their kids. That’s how they know who we are. So, I appreciate all of them.
A. Scott Galloway is a prolific Music Journalist based in Los Angeles. Last year for Black Music Month, he composed a similar in-depth interview with Bay Area Soul legends Tower of Power band members Emilio Castillo, David Garibaldi and Stephen “Doc” Kupka for EUR. Click here to read.
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